Translation of President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s interview with Mr. Mahmood Sham on December 14, 1972, published in Akhbar-e-Jahan of December 27, 1972

Question: Do you think the country is now out of real danger?

President: The extent to which it is free from danger, you can answer better because you have been in contact with the people. As far as I have examined the situation, I mean the present situation, I think that we have to a very great extent overcome the crisis. We have left it behind now and as the time passes, I am sure, the nation would be more firmly rooted.

Question: Are we fully prepared in our deference keeping in view the Indian threat?

President: Yes, we are prepared, but we shall have to make more preparations against any possible aggression. Whatever preparations we are making and whatever has been done during the last 11 months was done with this objective in view that we should be able to defend our frontiers. No country in history has ever lost so much of territory as Pakistan has lost to a nation which is our neighbor and which has never accepted Pakistan whole-heartedly. Our duty first is to strengthen our defenses so that, that nation is not able to resort to aggression again. But when we prepare our defenses, the Indian Government starts making a lot of noise and says that Pakistan was receiving armaments from such and such sources. On the one hand, Mr. Swaran Singh says in the Loke Sabha that they were trying to improve their relations with America, on the other hand, they make allegations against Pakistan receiving armaments from them (USA). America will have to recognize the existing realities, they say, and the existing realities according to Sardar Saheb is that even if India is not the only country in the subcontinent she is at least the only dominant power there, the only power of the subcontinent. Now they want themselves to be called the only power in the subcontinent which simply means that they want to bring us under their domination and they want Pakistan to accept their hegemony and thus they want to expand their area of domination. If they are themselves talking like this and want to have an upper hand in other countries, naturally we will have to make preparation for our defence. All our preparations are for our own defence, for the protection of our own territories. You shall see that with the passage of time our preparations would be in top gear and the nation would have full confidence in them.

Question: Don’t you think it is necessary for Pakistan, for the prosperity of the people of Pakistan, that our relations with Bharat should be cordial and peaceful?

President: Quite right. That is what should be done. That is the way to improve our economy. But in this context I must make it clear that the decisions should be based on justice and fairness. Without that whatever relations we have with India, even peaceful ones, would be very temporary. On the other hand, if there is a just settlement then there can surely be lasting peace in the subcontinent. Such peace would allow them to attend to their problems and we would also get time and opportunity to attend to our progress and development.

Question: Whatever success your Government has achieved is well-known but can you point out the failures of your government and the factors that contributed to it.

President: One of the factors is the lack of political stability. Despite the fact that we did everything to bring about a compromise and we did make certain adjustments which were more than are expected normally. We even took chances. Even then the political stability of the standard we wanted to have could not be achieved. We have made every effort in that direction. Whatever accord we succeeded in achieving with the NAP and the JUI we have given more and taken less. But even if we gave more we were giving it to the parties of our own country, to our own people. I do not grudge it. You would recall that although there was already an agreement they wriggled out of it by giving one interpretation after another. Later, we had some other agreements. We gave them Chief Ministership, the Governorship and did not even ask that assembly to elect its own leader of the House but assumed that they were in the majority. You know the type of majority they had even after the coalition not been issuing statements against them and whatever doubts or suspicions they had we tried to remove them. I did not insist on any fixed timings to meet them. Whenever they wanted to meet me I postponed all other engagements to meet them so that they might not think that we were not cooperating with them. We also went to tour their areas and were careful not to do or say anything which might create misunderstanding. At the same time the other parties too were approached by me. Those who are the so-called opposition. I tried to consult all of them, meet their various delegations and wished to meet their leaders and showed them great respect; consulted them before leaving for Simla and did not issue any statements. It was alleged that they were being referred to as defeated politicians which made them very unhappy. I, therefore, issued a press statement that they should not be called ‘defeated politicians’. Perhaps you would recall that statement. Well, that was what I did and I talked to them openly. And yet the type of political stability which is needed at the time of crisis has not been achieved. But that does not matter. We would be able to bear with it. Of course, had there been greater degree of cooperation particularly in our present atmosphere of freedom, we would have been able to make progress with greater speed. But as I told you, it does not matter. We can face the present difficulty also. I only wish that in this crisis all that we have been able to do should have been objectively seen and we should have been given greater cooperation and thus a greater degree of stability. But that did not happen.

Now the second thing is that as far as the gentlemen of the upper middle class of the cities are concerned whom I call people with sashes and waist-bands, those who indulge in cynicism and in giving adverse interpretations to the world and tell every foreigner who visits this country incorrect things, narrate a completely incorrect story that the country is now going to be destroyed and that the country is not there anymore. That now it is not one country. That its economy cannot go very far because this government is resorting to nationalization. All these right steps which we are taking are well-known to the world. The whole world knows that these things were long overdue. So they laught at these tales. But in the presence of those who listen to these things, these (upper middle class) people shed tears. It is all very sad and wrong. These people do not care for the good of the country nor do they have any respect for the truth. Their mentality is half colonial and half non-colonial. This segment of society has not made any contribution at all and has played no (positive) role whatsoever except that they have given people a depressed outlook. Besides, as I told you, they are giving a pessimistic interpretation of the present situation and allege that there is no democracy in the county. Now, who says that there is no democracy in this country?

The courts are working, the newspapers are being published. After all ours is still a tribal society. Half of our country is tribal. Even in Punjab and Sindh the tribal system exists and there are tribal territories and tribal regions in Baluchistan and Sarhad. Then there so many evils prevailing in our cities. There are so many people outside this country who do not want that this country should exist or if it does exist it should have a (proper) shape and complexion. We have to face all these elements. We certainly are not sitting in a situation which can be called a normal situation. Anything can happen. I met an American journalist the other day. He said that your opponents think that you are always adopting a hard line. I denied that and said that I don’t adopt a hard line. Didn’t I talk to leaders in Simla and didn’t I hold meetings round-the-clock? Didn’t I explain the policies of my government? Now if there are incidents like the one which happened the other day that tribal bands, astride their horses and fully armed with rifles and machine-guns came out to attack then it is not possible (for me) to sit idle. If we take action which is not legal and which is unconstitutional then we have to be answerable. We cannot beat our brow like the late Khawaja Nazimuddin and says, “Where should we go? What should we do?” We cannot sit helpless. Something has got to be done. It is our duty. We have to protect the society and the country and those who are working for it. Those who are delivering speeches, criticizing and doing all sorts of things they are free to do so. Now let me give you an example. The most important issue today is the issue of Bangladesh. Do you know anybody who has been arrested for having said that we should not recognize Bangladesh? At the moment the main issue is this, people may keep on talking against the recognition; we do not interfere with them. But they resort to stoning and brick-bating, indulge in rioting and illegal activities which are unconstitutional and make provocative speeches and think that no action would be taken (against them). Well, that is not democracy. It is important to understand what is democracy. We are facing very difficult conditions. When the British won the 2nd World War they did not have a glimpse of sugar for four or five years. They did not eat bread. They were getting eggs only once a week, in spite of the fact that they had won the war. This is what war means. I shall not say that we (really) lost a war. There are people who still say that we have not been defeated and if they are under such illusions let them please themselves and live with their illusions. I would not say that we have been defeated but I will also not say that we have won the war. But what happens after the war ends? The entire world knows, even a child knows that an economic crisis is bound to come and inflation is a natural outcome of war. We have spent 60 crore of rupees on importing sugar, even beyond our resources. These are the consequences of war. The market which we had in East Pakistan about which everybody says we were using as our market, well we do not have it any more. The word market of course was being incorrectly used. After all even here we have our market. But it is a fact that it was a place where our goods were being consumed. It was one country and all those markets which we have in Punjab, Sindh and other regions, they are all our national markets. There were six crore of our people who were living there and who were receiving our textiles, rice and so many other things. Now we have lost them. At the same time trade with India has been closed and smuggling is going on. In this crisis, therefore, it is not too much to expect from the people to have some national feelings and not to indulge in smuggling and endure some hardship for a year or so. They must give some political cooperation and show some discipline and work hard. We have to build the country. This is the only way we can build the country. We cannot build the country merely through my speeches and all the things which I keep saying. Every challenge must have a response. I think there could have been greater response. Perhaps we are to be blamed that we could not motivate people to that extent although I think we have motivated people to a great extent. However, people easily lose their heart and tend to forget too easily. On the 20th of December when I returned from America and Rome, I saw such hopelessness. A number of people came to me and said that I must reach a settlement quickly and forget everything because we would not be able to defend ourselves and that if India took such and such a step the next day we would be helpless and would not be able to do anything to counter it. It appeared as if it was the doomsday. They were all responsible people who came to me. They were not people of no consequence. But now you can say that in these 11 months things have improved a great deal so far as our national status and national situation is concerned. We have achieved great success in the United Nations. We have reached a constitutional accord on the basis of which our permanent constitution would be framed. Economic activity is in full swing. You are seeing all this. I do think that we may not have done all that we wished to do because it needed a lot of money and we are already spending more than ever on our defence. We do not have East Pakistan any more with us. The resources of East Pakistan are no more available to us. Even then my Government is spending far more than what the governments of Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan were spending (on defence). Over and above this expenditure we are implementing the Education Policy within our development budget. We are giving free education upto eighth class. Towards the Labour Policy too whatever we could do we have done. We would also give ownership of land to the farmers. Then there is the Health Policy, the Industrial policy and the wage and salary increase for the class-III, Class-II, Class-I and Class IV employees. In addition to that we have brought Law Reforms and given the Interim constitution.

You will have to make the balance-sheet because if I make my balance-sheet I would start praising myself which is of no use. Everyone can praise one’s own self. But the shortcomings can only be observed by other people. I do not say that we have not committed mistakes and there have not been some failings. But only you can observe them and your failings can similarly be observed by me. So this balance-sheet has to be prepared by you on the 20th December. I am not aiming to present anything great on 20th December because it is not a particularly important day. 20th December is an ordinary day. The way 11 months have passed the twelfth month would also pass. I do not want that there should be any illuminations nor should there be recitation of national songs etc. on radio and television. This I have already said but I am sure, since they are such sycophants, they would celebrate it under the impression that this would please me. Although I have given clear instructions that this is a very ordinary day like every other day. But then there are newspapers who will make their assessments like you are making an assessment in your Akhbar-e-Jehan. There is no harm in that, but there is no need for celebrations. Of course if on the next 20th December we are able to achieve some great victory and if we are able to climb the high mountain peaks then it is a different matter. At this moment, however, I do not want to say that we have done anything great. Saving the country was enough. I say to the people that we have been able to rescue the sinking boat and have brought it to the shore. We had seen a corpse lying in front of us and we have put life in the corpse. That was enough. I take no credit for that. I am not a magician. I am confident of my nation and I knew it all the time that people would be responding to me. The poor people did respond; farmers, workers, students, all of them responded but as far as the other political parties are concerned, that is a different story. There may be splinter groups here and there but by and large the students, farmers, laborers, middle-class, lower-middle-class, shop-keepers, upper —middle-class, all of them have responded. Not that the people do not have the realization of the gravity of the situation. The majority does realize and a big majority did. But there are some elements who could have extended greater cooperation to us and allowed this machinery to work with greater speed.

Question: Don’t you think that the present public unrest can be stopped if a conference of the leaders of all parliamentary groups is called and an agreement on the question of the recognition of Bangladesh is reached in the same manner as was done in the case of the constitutional accord?

President: Quite right. It can be done. But you must not forget about the timing of the negotiations for the constitutional accord. They were done when I felt that it was time that we should discuss the constitution and reach an agreement. So I called the meeting in October. Had I called it in July or June it was possible that we would not have succeeded in reaching an accord. Everything has its own timing. When we are yet to reach the water where is the point in taking off our shoes in preparation for river crossing? Well, when I would find that we were about to open talks with Mujib ur Rahman or if there is some other such development then I would perhaps find it necessary to call the leaders for consultations, or if I find that it is time for everyone to offer his views, as one leader has suggested, that time should be allowed to them on the television. But everything has its own timing. I have not yet started any negotiations on this issue and have merely said that in my humble opinion it is necessary to recognize Bangladesh. I have not even said that that was my party’s decision. I have not even said that It was the resolution of the Central committee of our party. When we would reach the point or the stage where such a thing would be necessary then quite a few things would be possible and would be done. But if you think that these demonstrations are because of the issue of Bangladesh you are sadly mistaken. These people only want to play their last card which they would certainly not be allowed to play. Earlier too when the Simla Agreement was signed, and it was a big achievement indeed, these people at once created the language issue and fanned all kinds of agitations. Things have now settled and you can see if Urdu was at all or really threatened? You have already seen the compromise ordinance on that issue. So whatever happened was a kind of game they played. This time too the situation is the same and all this is because the delineation of the control line has been finalized and the troops were about to be withdrawn. Five thousand square miles of territory was being restored to us and is now being restored to one million of poor people who were thrown out from (their land) and had become beggars, seeking refuge and were wandering from place to place. It is also a big achievement, because you would recall that even after the second World War and even earlier occupied territories have never been restored within such a short time nor the troops were withdrawn (so soon after the war). So it is a new phenomenon and it was all favorable to this nation. The credit for this was going to this Government. It is for this reason that these people (opposition) came out with a new plan under the cover of Bangladesh. We have already said that we would take the issue of Bangladesh to the Assembly and before that quite a few other things would be done. Besides, I have told a number of things to the foreign correspondents. All of those things have been published in our press too. Now, that gentleman (Mujibur Rahman) is holding elections in March so that it is not possible to meet him before March, until the election there are over. And when we find that Mujib’s party wins the elections, we would see what we were supposed to do. There are still about three months for that. Why should I be in a hurry. All that has happened, therefore, was a mere excuse.

Question: Is it not advisable that in order to keep the Kashmir issue alive and to maintain activity at the diplomatic level a campaign should be started to get the Azad Kashmir Government recognized as an independent and sovereign Government?

President: Well, people keep saying that it should be done. Every Government had examined this issue and every Government came to the same conclusion. It is not a matter which is new. Perhaps Quaid-I-Azam did not examine this issue in this light although I tend to believe that Quaid-I-Azam must have done so. I do believe that Quaid-i-Azam must have given some thought to it and as I have already said that every Government did examine it and having evaluated the merits or otherwise of this case they all came to the conclusion that this policy would not be favourable to our interests so that the problem would not be solved as we wanted it to be solved. I know that there are some such gentlemen who keep suggesting this but it is the opinion of my Government that this is not the way to keep this issue alive. God willing, this issue will remain alive. The issues of this kind cannot die. Of course, sometimes it does appear that this issue had died and that it would not crop up again or that one would not be required to face it again. But things don’t happen, like this. These are such issues, such national issues, people’s issues, where it is important to know how much has been spent (on them). (It is important to realize) that India has spent on this Kashmir issue a great deal and what have they got out of it. They (Indians) have done a great deal towards (building up) the economy of that area when we have not done much for the people on our side (of Kashmir). No reforms have been introduced. When I went there I learnt that the excuse was that nothing could be done until the final settlement was arrived at. Are they not supposed to live like human beings? Are they not human beings? Even on the question of crime and punishment should that not be governed by law and must they always be governed by FCR? If there is dearness it has to be only for these people? If there is the scarcity of salt, it has to be only for these people? The Political Agent should be all powerful?

Yes, these issues cannot be solved like this. Although on the Indian side people have made considerable progress even then I am quite sure that if plebiscite is held people will not be voting in favor of India. Now although nothing has been done for these people (on our side), but they still keep raising slogans in favor of Pakistan because it is natural for them to feel that there is no difference between them and us. That we belong to the same race and our history is one, our faith, belief and religion are one, our geography is one. These poor people whom we have not allowed to move and who have not been granted these little benefits of the 20th century which Pakistan enjoys today. Even so, these poor people are loyal to us. As a matter of fact they have made very special efforts and have served this country and cooperated with us. Now therefore, it is evident that these issues cannot be solved like this and have to be tackled like all other issues of the world.

Question: Are you hinting at the Resolutions of the United nations?

President: Well, you know I have great respect for the United Nations. It is the United Nations which represents, all nations of the world but as far as Pakistan is concerned U.N. has not crowned us with any glory or favour nor is it expected that they would do so.

Question: At present there are people speaking various languages in Pakistan particularly those who have come from India as refugees. They are expected to get assimilated with the local population. How much time do you think they would take in getting culturally, linguistically and socially assimilated as a complete unit with the local population? What is the programme of your Government in this regard?

President: How can I give you a clear-cut answer to this question. If our policies remain correct and if we dispense justice to everyone and if we have an economy based on justice and fairness and if we sincerely eradicate the prejudices which people have against each other and if we do not laugh at each other and do justice to each other in the economy and, with full regard to the pattern of population, if we allow everyone his rights, then in a very short time there can be a complete and consolidated unit. On the other hand, if we pursue a wrong policy, keep exploiting the various regions and only talk of brotherhood and unity without really meaning what we say then perhaps we would not be successful. We have only four Provinces and in these four Provinces there are various cultures such as Punjabi, Sindhi, Pathan, Baluchi, Muhajirs and the Muhajirs are from U.P. or Bihar or Delhi but they are all Urdu speaking. Then there are Gujratis from Kathiawar. There are Memons. So that our problem is confined only to six or seven elements whereas in India there are innumerable problems. What a difference! If you go from Madras towards Western India or from there if you move upwards towards Eastern India and then look at Central India, Southern India and Northern India, then you would find not only different cultures, but different nations (living) there. In spite of that they carried their political affairs on correct lines because their politics remained in the hands of politicians. Besides, at a time of crisis when the basic work of a free nations is supposed to be done, the politics there was controlled by a personality like Nehru. Here the Quaid-I-Azam died and the Quaid-I-Millat was assassinated.

Question: What is your Government doing about this issue at cultural level?

President: We are doing a lot. First, as I told you we are doing justice with every region-not verbal justice but practical justice. We are making efforts to do that. Many people are saying (contemptuously) that a lot of work is being done in Lyari and that a new Islamabad is being built in Lyari. But this is incorrect. If the accusation is that we are doing this because we got the largest number of votes from Lyari then which was the place where we did not get a large number of votes? Look at Punjab and Sindh. From various areas in these Provinces we got large number of votes. We are not serving Lyari merely because we received lots of votes from there. Look at Liaquatabad where during the language troubles the market was burnt down. We are building there a grand market, a very good new market. We have issued orders for proper water supply there and for cleaning the roads in that area. As far as Lyari is concerned I think I have never seen so much of insanitation and poverty in my life as I have seen in Lyari. Ever since I was a student and was not yet in politics I used to feel very bad about it. At that time I did not know what would be my destiny, whether I would be a politician, an engineer or a doctor, but I remember very clearly that, whatever my career, I knew that I must do something for them. I must personally serve them. When I became a Minister I did speak to Ayub Khan about these poor people that they could not live like animals. It was better to put them in a zoo and tell the world that this is Pakistan’s Zoo. Remember that there (in Lyari) too the people who are living are Pakistanis. It is not merely Sindhis who are living there. We are not doing it for Sindhis alone. Baluchis and Mekranis are also living there and it did not matter who was living there because we have to serve everyone, all Pakistanis. Look at Baluchistan where we do not have the Government of our party. We have doubled the budget there. Even before the present Government came to power we had doubled the budget of Sarhad and I have ordered that whatever proposal or project is received from Baluchistan and Sarhad it should be given priority. I examined it myself sympathetically, the question of their medical college and the new sea-port which they need. We would do everything to help them in these projects. I also want that the tribal areas of Sarhad should become open and there should be new roads. Recently when I had gone there on a tour I announced as many grants as I could. The Ministry of Finance was very unhappy about that but I said, after all, whom was I helping? I was helping Pakistan. We would do something for the University in D.I. Khan and other schemes which are for the rest of the country. The majority of our population lives in the Punjab, those who are serving the country. Now those who live in the majority areas they also feel the pinch. After all it is human to feel pain or relief. It is human to weep, eat, die, sleep or live. All those are human activities. We have to serve the human beings whose majority in this country lives in the Punjab. Majority has its own rights and whatever the rights of the majority it must get those rights. We do not have the wealth of America to spend on going to moon and see what sort of dust one gets on moon, whether it is red or yellow or black. They have such resources that they can spend in whatever manner they like. But whatever limited resources we have, we must spend them on our people. This has to be done in the light of the principles of justice. Now which is the most backward area? The basic needs of that area without which a man cannot live have to be taken into consideration. In that area where there is no water, no electricity, there are some basic human requirements which we must grant them before anyone else and we also must maintain an equilibrium. Every government has to maintain an equilibrium — a balance and see whether the scale is going up or going down. If the scale is going down you have to put more weight on the other side. Now, if we serve the people like this then nothing would remain hidden and nobody would say that it is a fraud. Suppose there is fraud in all this or if we are deceiving people it would not last long and we would be exposed very soon. Every Government says that they would do justice to everybody. But it is enough to look at their actions so that one can easily know what they had done. I would not say that it should not happen like this or that. That I don’t belong to such and such place and that I belong to such and such region. I am not going to damage the people of one region merely to prove that I am doing justice. That would be a very strange way of proving that one was doing justice and, therefore. I am not going to allow unjust advantages to anyone. Now, let me tell you frankly that in Larkana some works programme is taking place and therefore some people are likely to say that it is being done because Mr. Bhutto comes from Larkana. But that is not correct. I have told the Sindh Government that first there should be construction work in Karachi, then in Hyderabad, then in Sukkur. That is as far as the cities are concerned. As for the districts or the Mufassil areas I have told them that it should be in Thatta, Dadu, Jaccobabad and Larkana because they are backward areas. As far as Larkana City is concerned, it has always been a political center. The MNAa and MPAs of that place have always been asserting themselves. They know how to assert themselves. Of course I keep stopping them to do so. I would do everything within my means not to let this happen. But then there is the question of electricity in the villages and wherever it is needed. That also has to be attended to. All those people who live there and who love their area, love their country, they consider each other as their brothers and for them every house is like their home. No matter whether they are in Dera Ismail Khan or in Bannu, whether they are in Multan or in Bahawalpur whether they are in Sheikhupura or Lyallpur, whether they are in Karachi or Thatta, whether they are in Baluchistan, Quetta or Kalat. If people are happy with you, you go there and they would receive you with warmth. Naturally you feel happy to realize that the whole country belongs to you and that is the reason why you want that every place throughout the country should prosper. And wherever you raise a garden that would be a part of Pakistan.

Question: In your opinion what are the chances of army or bureaucracy interfering in politics? Are there any chances or are they now finished?

President: I am not a prophet. I cannot prophesize. So far as our Government is concerned, this is a democratically elected government. The party which forms the government has received overwhelming support from the people. In spite of all this the Yahya Government used its maximum power to damage us and the bureaucracy under the order of Yahya tried to harm us. You would know it very well, because you have been my companion and fellow worker. We have not come to power from the back-door. We have not taken any action like a usurper. We have therefore, come to power constitutionally. This is an interim constitution and Inshallah we will have a permanent constitution very soon. Now the constitution under which we have taken oath would be defended by us and democracy for which we have made efforts we would protect it and in protecting it we would be doing our duty. Until the next elections, whenever they are held, and Inshallah they will be held in time, so that if in a democratic elections we are defeated and another party wins the elections and gets the majority we would welcome the decision. Not only shall we be requesting that Government to take over and take the chair because they were elected by the people but we would also leave the Government, leave the offices for them and having seated them comfortably in the House, we would pick up our hats and leave. This is the democratic system and we are going to reinstate this democratic system. If there is anyone who wants to adopt undemocratic means, whoever he may be, we are going to fight him out. We shall not be coming with parched lips and a hoarse voice to announce on the radio that now, sir, I am handing over the Government to the Army. No, we would fight. We would give our lives. We have faced these things earlier. We cannot tolerate any undemocratic activity. If in the name of democracy undemocratic means are adopted then they would be dealt with in the same style. Democracy will be responded to by democracy and undemocratic means would be counteracted by undemocratic means. Let no one have any doubt about it. If there is anyone who is trying to be clever and thinking of resorting to such methods then I must tell you that there would be such colossal damage in this region that perhaps even the Himalayas would weep. Come, let us work out this democracy and work it out in democratic method. We have not been high-handed towards anyone. If some people want to make public speeches it does not matter how inciting and strong their speeches are, so long as they are talking politics and economics. If they say that we should not recognize Bangladesh, let them make speeches with pleasure. If they say that our party has not acted according to its manifesto and that we were liars and that we have not eradicated poverty, they are welcome to say that. We have never interfered with them. We have never said anything to them. But if people come to the public platform and use abusive language and make personal attacks and create chaos and say that blood would flow in the streets, then surely, in democracy blood cannot be allowed to flow in the streets. Agreed, that in the days of Ayub Khan, we were also making such speeches. But those were not democratic days. Now, there is democracy where there is freedom to everyone. We do not say why people are saying such and such things. They are welcome to say whatever they want, but all within the bounds of law. Because even within the bounds of law one can make excellent speeches. If these people think that telling lies, black lies and speaking in a vulgar fashion is to be allowed, they are wrong. That is not permitted in democracy. You were with us when we were opposing Ayub Khan. Did we ever make personal attacks on him? Or did we ever use abusive language for his family? Of course, we did say that he was corrupt, because he was and the entire world knew it. We did say that he made his sons millionaires, gave them industry, and that was true. But we would not allow them to indulge in these undemocratic methods and talk things which are undemocratic. We are not such helpless people. We are not orphans. After all we have a political party and the members of our party are likely to feel bad about these things and they are likely to get provoked. I mean all the people who belong to our community, who belong to our fold. Don’t you think they would feel provoked? Now, these are not democratic methods. So in this situation what democratic response do you expect? In a situation where tribesmen astride their horses are going towards Quetta and armed with machine-guns, surround the secretariat and demand resignation from a Minister? Do you expect that in such a situation I would sit with folded hands and receive them and say that gentlemen, you have resorted to very democratic methods and, therefore, I would also resort to democratic methods? If they don’t carry machine-guns, if they do not surround the secretariat like this, if they don’t resort to such undemocratic methods, then it is all right with me and I would say that if you want resignation from a particular Minister you are welcome to demand that. But while they are doing all these undemocratic things they complain too that we are using force against them. I which country force is not used to curb such activities? In which democracy strong action is not taken against such lawlessness? For one thing, in a democratic country such things do not happen but if they do happen and if demonstration takes place then you see what happens in Britain, Northern Ireland, Germany, Japan and France. There too people are arrested. In India too people are arrested. Now, if we want that democracy should flourish and if we want that democracy should work then whoever wants to speak in the opposition he is welcome to do so and we would up with that. But all this has to be done within the limits of democracy. So, in reply to your question can say that at least the Armed Forces have the wisdom to know as to what would be the result of any undemocratic action in this country and as far as the bureaucracy is concerned it dare not indulge in politics. So that if any such thing happens it would be a very sad decision with very dangerous consequences.